A Hip Hop Time Capsule
Israel, Alex, and I had a discussion last night, while listening to "Only Built for Cuban Links", where we discussed - if we were to leave a time capsule for future generations - what ten artists defined hip hop for our generation and would demand inclusion? For our generation, we defined the time span to be from 1987 to 2007, and we decided for artists, we would include a group, no matter how large or small, as a single entity. NWA, for example, would be one entity in our time capsule list. Another important note; politics pushed aside, we are talking about musically important, and by that we aren’t talking about one hot album, but someone(s),who changed hip-hop, or defined it for the past twenty years. The first six were sort of easy:
(This list is in no particular order.)
1. Public Enemy: Sure Rap’s roots were somewhat socially conscious, but the way Public Enemy mixed their message with songs friendly for radio and mass consumption made revolutionary thought accessible.
2. Wu-Tang: As Israel noted, they were the first rappers to take Mafioso, drug dealing mentality and lingo, and elevate it to the form of high art. Production wise, they were clearly ahead of their time.
3. NWA: They opened the rest of the country to the world of California. They added a violent, against the mainstream edge to hip-hop that took it from a friendly New York Party genre, to a socially angry medium for expression.
4. Outkast: “East coast, West coast, the South got something to say and that’s it.” This group was the first to loosen the head lock the East and West Coast had over hip-hop for a long time. They didn’t bite either, sticking to a distinctly Southern sound and perspective. (Of the first six, this group was the only to have any dissension. Alex thought they didn’t belong in the top ten.)
5. Notorious B.I.G: With only two albums, this man created songs that defined Hip-hop. His swagger, honesty, wit, and story-telling ability took the country by storm. His early death was a blow one might point to as the end of hip hop’s ability to successfully walk the line of broad appeal and high lyrical standard.
6. Tupac Shakur: Shit talker, contradictarian, poet, and probably the most passionate person to ever pick up a microphone, his life speaks to a certain post-civil rights/integration frustration that many of us have felt. No one spoke more eloquently and angrily about the lie of the American Dream.
Here things became less certain for us. We had a list of six rappers, only four slots left, and no women on the list. We are keeping it real, no politics, Little Kim doesn’t make this list, nor does Foxy Brown. We decided we needed a woman, and the only one worthy to be mentioned with these rappers is:
7. Lauren Hill: Easy choice right? She could rap, for sure, but I question the strength of her overall rap catalogue, but her few rap lyrics sound unbelievably perceptive and honest next to most other rappers. So we included her on this list.
8. Nas: This man has personal demons, but Nas has brought so much originality and riskiness to the form of rap songs one has to include him. Whether it’s rapping backwards, changing the volume and intensity of his voice, speaking from the consciousness of a gun, or himself in his mother’s womb, he has taken chances. Plus, in my humble opinion, no one is more New York than Nasty Nas.
9. Jay- Z: The pretty boy swagger, the hustler’s bravado, Jay- Z has stolen more lines from Biggie than a coke head girlfriend from her drug dealer Man, yet, overzealous homage aside, this guy has word-play and puns that match the greatest wordsmiths of all time: “High school, Crossover/ Waved away picks/ Music is the same thing/ Gave away hits.”
10. Who knows? This I want to leave to the Cypher. Who should get this last slot. Wait, what is that I hear? is that Dre arguing for the Roots? I hope not. I won’t even dare to mention Lil Wayne. Who belongs here? Also, did we get it right? Feel free to argue, but remember our definition: changed the nature of hip-hop in the last twenty years.
36 comments:
Thanks for writing this Drew. I definitely think that one group was left off this list: De La Soul. They were that first kind of "Bohemian" hip hop group. I think that they're sound was definitely different. They were the only group to be able to last with their particular sound, but they still made an impact on Hip Hop. As for women, before I put Lauren Hill (who I love), If I were to put a woman or women it would have to be Salt 'n Pepa or, who I always believed was the best female MC, MC Lyte. Salt N. Pepa were the first female group and had their share of imitators. Im not exactly sure if they were in fact the first female group, but, they definitely were the most popular and had their share of imitators. As for Lyte, she had crazy skills. Don't you remember, "Cha, Cha, Cha", or "I am the Lyte", or "Poor Georgie"? I thought those were classic. And let's not forget the woman who put her on, Queen Latifah. Come to think of it, maybe it would have to be Latifah over Lyte for that reason. She was the first female MC with real skill and probably started it all.
Luis,
Are you seriously saying that The Roots have not changed the nature of Hip Hop? They are the ONLY actual band out there playing music. And they created a whole new generation of rappers using bands behind them (usually The Roots). Questlove is one of THE most respected producers and musicians in the MUSIC industry, not just hip hop. And Black Thought is one of the illest lyricists EVER. Ask Jay-Z if they should be on this list. They are making him a buttload of money right now.
And where are the native tounges? Any of them? Those groups created a new sub-culture of hip hop.
Where's Run DMC? wassup guys? You are limiting this list to guys like Jay-Z, Biggie and Tupac, who, though very relevant and great lyricists, weren't doing anything extrodinary muscially to change the nature of hip hop. If you are talking musically you HAVE to include The Roots, De La, Tribe, Run DMC, Mos Def, Eric B and Rakim, Gangstarr, so many people. I'm starting my own list.
Or, maybe you should make two lists;
Musically changed the nature of hip hop
Lyrically changed the nature of hip hop.
Luis, stop hating on The Roots. Go see them live one day and see what real hip hop can truly be.
Sorry Luis, I didn't realize Drew wrote this entry.
Drew.. stop hating on The Roots. They can kick Outkast's asses with their arms tied behind their backs (I'm not hating.. Outkast should definitely be on this list).
You guys got it wrong. First off, The Roots have not changed Hip Hop. For better or worse, the live band thing hasn't really caught on in hip hop, even now. I don't foresee it in the future. And Black Thought? If Jay Z or Biggie or Ghostface or our other MC's had the roots band, The Roots would be out of this universe. Keep it real, Black Thought holds the band back. No one quotes Black Thoughts lines, no one jocks his style. Better than Outkast, well that's a matter of taste, but Outkast opened up a whole region to national attention. Look how many acts and groups have followed them to acclaim.Who has followed The Roots, Jill Scott? Before Outkast, Southern Music had pretty much nobody getting played in NYC. Check the dial now.
Speaking of NYC; Gangstar, Tribe, Mos Def, represent you all's clear east coast perspective. Most people around the country never heard of Gangstarr, never bumped Tribe, and don't care for Mos Def's singing antics. How can someone have changed Hip Hop, if a large majority of people don't know who he or she is?
I couldn't put Queen Fatfah's name next to these rappers. Maybe Salt N Pepa, who had some tight songs.
I would have to say that Rakim get on the list before Jay-Z or Nas. Talk about changing the game. One one rapped like him before he stepped on the scene and both those guys and Biggie acknowledge owing a big debt to the R.
Take Tupac off (may he rest in peaceno disrspect) and put Dr. Dre he re-introduced us to Parliment and gave us Snoop and M&M.
Add Run-DMC and especialy De La Soul. Without De La you don't have artist like the Fugees, Common, Black Star, the Tribe, Arrested Development, the Pharcyde etc...
I'm on the fence with the Wu so I'll leave them there for now.
"My name is Rakim Allah, and R & A stands for "Ra"
Switch it around, but still comes out "R"
So easily will I e-m-c-e-e
My repetition of words is "check out my melody"
GodFather of Hip Hop, the game was never the same after him.....nuff said.
"I take 7 MC's put em in a line
And add 7 more brothas who think they can rhyme
Well, it'll take 7 more before I go for mine
And that's 21 MC's ate up at the same time"
Yeah, sorry for not mentioning Rakim. Definitely would put Ra over Jay-Z. Drew, have you heard Lyte rhyme? She was bad. The other thing that the Wu started - I think - was the "dirty" sample. It may have started out because their equipment was budget, but, a lot of acts copied that sampling technique. Lauren Hill has to be bumped. What did she put out? An album? Album and a half? Where's the catalog? But Run-DMC should have to be on here too. Crap, if I think about it, should Beastie Boys be here too? Putting lyrics over punk rock? And if it werent for the 20 year thing you wrote, Afrika Bambattaa.
Lauren Hill?????
For top 10???
Must b crazy!
As far as women go, Lyte and Queen Latifah were laying it down way before her.
Nas should be automatic as should De La Soul. De La was the most creative and most influential of the Native Tongues paving the way for Common, Mos Def, Black Sheep, Digable Planets, Talib Kweli and others. As for Lauren Hill she had one album (unless you count the score which is hardly an album), a good album but not top ten by any means. If you want a woman on the list and I think there should- then I agree with MC Lyte she had classics in 88,89, and 91 not to mention she was writing rhymes for several other MC's.
If the criteria is musical impact and not popularity then I think some other-not so obvious artists deserve some thought. First Digital Underground, they were the first to blatently sample Parliment leeding to the west coast sound they gave us funk driven beats and 2pac. And I think Jay-z should be reconsidered. He had a huge impact but what he did best was make money, musically the most important thing he brought to rap was Kanye West. I do think when all is said and done Kanye might be on that list, right now everyone wants to sound like Kanye. I also think, dare I say, if the we are talking impact, the Beastie Boys deserve consideration for stay power, experimentation and opening what we consider rap. Like 3 feet high, Pauls Boutique was a revolutionary album. In both cases no one was sampling such a wide range of beats and sound bites. The Roots deserve consideration as well-for the same reason-though I question Black Thought's "lyricism"- Posdmuos now there is a lyricist. As a former west coaster I have to emphasize the impact the Pharcyde had out west. There was no consciuos rap on the west coast before them, they came out and that was all we listened to. There is also a dude named Madlib from LA who is doing things I've never heard. He is making experimental rap, producer raw sound, playing instruments rapping and making instrumental albums, doing for hip hop what Coltrane and Monk did for jazz and producing for Ghostface, MF Doom, Talib Kweli, Common, and others.
Drew,
The haterade is flowing. I know you are all angry cause I threw a little dis at Outkast, but I did that on purpose, just to get you all riled up. I agree with all you have said about Outkast, and for better or for worse, they have opened up the mainstream to that southern rap stuff that all the kids are grinding to these days. I would have Outkast on this list hands down.
Now, I know I'm the resident Roots groupie, but how could you guys seriously question whether they should be on this list. It has always boggled my mind how "hip hop lovers' never give The Roots their daps. They epitomize black music. they have taken hip hop to places that Jay-Z, Biggie, etc. never even dreamed of. They have played back-up for Jay-Z (saw it live at Lincoln Center), Mos, Kweli, Nas, EVERYONE.. They all want to play with the band.
And I'm sorry, but to say Black Thought is holding back the band is simply ludicrous. Why? Cause no one quotes his lines? Probably because they can't pronounce the words he uses, or copy his flow. His lyrics are intelligent, complicated, thoughtful, etc... He can freestyle for days and knows how to Master the Ceremonies. Sure the band is great, but anyone of us could go up there and and sound great with them behind us... its the pressence, the timing, the camaraderie, the energy, and his lyrics. Perhaps its because there AREN'T many bands in the game, so as people growing up on two MCs and DJ, many wouldn't know what band dynamics should be about.
I saw the Area One tour a few years ago that had both The Roots AND Outkast. I'm a big fan of both, but it was very disheartening to see Outkast up there with guys "holding" instruments, ACTING like they were playing, even though the dj was running all the tracks off a DAT. Why? Cause they were trying to compete with The Roots stage pressence. You can't follow those guys with Two MCs and a DJ. Questlove even mentioned this in one of his blogs on okayplayer.com. He was dissapointed how the mainstream audience was giving Outkast props for having live instruments, even though they weren't playing. That is just people not knowing any better cause they aren't used to the band concept. But the music industry knows.. and the performers know.. which is why I'm sure if you asked Jay-Z (who just signed the roots to his label), Nas, or any of those other dudes they would tell you The Roots should be there AND Black Thought is an ill lyricist. Listen to "Web" off "The Tipping Point" and tell me he's a suspect lyricist. Or simply go see them live.
"The anticipation arose as time froze
I stared off the stage with my eyes closed and dove
into the deep cosmos
The impact pushed back, the first five rows
But before the raw live shows
I remember I'se a little snot-nosed
Rockin Gazelle, goggles and Izod clothes
Learnin the ropes of ghetto survival
Peepin out the situation I had to slide through
Had to watch my back my front plus my sides too
When it came to gettin mine I ain't tryin, to argue
Sometimes I wouldn'ta made it if it wasn't for you
Hip-Hop, you the love of my life and that's true
When I was handlin the shit I had to do
It was all for you, from the door for you
Speak through you, gettin paper on tour for you
From the start, Thought was down by law for you
Used to hit up every corner store wall for you
We ripped shit, and kept it hardcore for you
I remember late nights, steady rockin the mic
Hip-Hop, you the love of my life "
-Black Thought - Act Too (The Love of My Life)
Dre, Seems like black thought is on your mind a lot. The Roots could be the best live band I have ever seen, and I've seen them a few times. They are great, maybe the greatest right now. Black thought just isn't amazing, I listen to him he goes well with the the band he has a good voice and timing, but he is mostly bravado, not much story telling or word play, I never find myself shaking my head in amazement, I even preferred Dice Raw.
Drew, everyone I know listened to Tribe. And while you and your southern posse was bumping rex n' effects I can remember listening to Gangstar in Zac's dodge dart in Portland.
One other band that really changed things is Cypress Hill for a while it seemed like eevryone was biting off there sound from House of Pain to Ice cube.
So now that I'm off my "Roots soapbox", I will speak on the others that should be on the list.
I already mentioned a bunch in my first post (Run DMC, Eric B and Rakim, etc.).
I have to agree with the Beasties. Love them or hate them (I'm somewhere in the middle... definitely don't HATE them, but can only deal with them in small doses) they opened the door for experimental hip hop, made sampling a true art form, payed homage to music, not just hip hop, and of course, opened the forum for the white rappers to follow.
Rakim, no question.
RUN DMC... NO QUESTION!
I hear what Drew is saying about some groups only having impact on the East coast. I would have to ask Nat... I have to think Tribe and De La were bumping out west. and if not, times have changed. Now that hip hop is all over the place, I'm sure a lot of real hip hoppers out west know who gangstarr, Tribe, Mos def etc. are.
Oh yea.. and those "singing antics" by Mos Def could be considered changing the nature of hip hop, no? I mean, things have to change somehow. Why not have a little melody. You wanna hear the future of Hip Hop, cop the new K-OS album. You might not like it though... he sings, has a band, writes his own music, transcends the norm of what most people think of as Hip Hop. Much like these other guys you might have heard of... The Roots.
Jay-Z, Nas, Tupac and Lauren Hill need to be taken off the list. I would even take Biggie off. These guys definitely had an impact on hip hop, but didn't change the nature of it. The were just doing it better than others at their given times.
Queen Latifah, Lyte and Salt n Pepa should all get a mention. We can't front, though... Lauren Hill had a nasty flow when she was in the Fugees. I consider her one of the best female lyricists, but she didn't hang around long enough to really make an impact. If I had to choose one of the bunch, I'd give it to MC Lyte. She was nice and is well respected in the game.
Side note... have you guys heard the lastest stuff from Ladybug (formerly of Digable Planets).She's doing her thing. she's playing at Prospect park I think. we should check it out.
Peace. Love Music.
Alright, people make good points. However, Run DMC had three albums before 1987, and there album in 1988, Tougher than leather, was their last to go platinum. The next goes straight grass, and is followed by one last gold album. I would argue the past two decades their popularity has severely waned. If the list was 80, 90's, they would definitely have to be on the list. I agree the list might need to be reconsidered in terms of MC Lyte and Rakim.
As for, Black Thought, I agree that the litmus for a lyricist shouldn't be qutoablility; with that comment ,I was more speaking to his lyrical relevance. In that regard, I totally agree with Nat's response. Plus, Black Thought is not definitely not too complex for me, and I just don’t love his rhymes.
The Roots maybe belong, but remember any exhaustive list is gonna be flawed, so that's why I tried to make specific definitions. Changed Hip Hop over Twenty years.
Regionalism/Crossover Appeal: in that regard, I believe one source of disagreement stems from a disagreement of taste. People from the East Coast are automatically going to favor east coast music; therefore how does one avoid this bias. Crossover appeal, I would say. For example, the fact that at-least two of you have called for Tupac's removal proves this, I think. Whether you know it or not, that has to be tainted by regionalism. Tupac not only took hip hop by storm across the country, he took it international. He connected with white in kids in Yugoslavia; i have heard people in South Africa talk of him like a revolutionary. Musically, he was a definitive figure. I could be wrong about this, but didn’t he create a genre of rap song with his ode to his mother, "Dear Mama?" Even if he didn't, he elevated it. That is a tight song. Come on!
If we ignored cross over appeal, than I would passionately argue for southern groups like the Ghetto Boys.
Cross over appeal is exactly why we decided not to have the beastie boys on the list. I have never heard a black person bump the beastie boys, or demand I buy one of their albums. They certainly widened hip hop's appeal, but I don't really find them relevant to many men of color I know who love hip hop.
Dr. Dre is in NWA, already got him covered.
I agree with Drew in that any exhaustive list is going to have its flaws. Nevertheless, I think Drew did a pretty good job with this. I would also argue that the list has a disproportionate share of east coast MCs because of where this music started and the premium the east puts on originality (or at least used to). Not making this list doesn't mean you're being shat on. I mean, it's 10 slots in 20 freakin years we're talking about here!
Lets remember the criteria: someone or group that changed hip hop or defined it over the past twenty years, politics pushed aside. Eminem may make this list if you include the political factor given the prominence he held in both the white and black communities; I don't know one black fan of hip hop who didn't acknowledge Eminem's skills. In any case, he doesn't belong on this list if we're strictly talking music. No one was trying to sound like him. I brought up the Beastie Boys during the convo but, as Drew points out, their music just isn't as hot as all the other artists up here.
This brings me to the other arguments here. De La doesn't belong either. They're hot but mostly representative of an era, not generation-defining music that changed the trajectory of the art. Same thing holds for Tribe. I would be willing to put the Native Tongues (De La, Tribe, Jungle Bros, Monie, etc.) on this list as a collective, though.
I think Rakim deserves strong consideration on this list and, in my opinion, Lauren Hill belongs in the conversation as a female representative over MC Lyte, Latifah and Salt n Pepa. Her music was just so much better. You can say what you want about her catalog but, while confined to mostly 3 albums, it puts anything those other female acts did to shame (Fugees, MisEducation of..., etc.). Can you name more than two albums from those other female MCs?
Same thing goes with the Roots. I love them but they definitely don't transcend the music or set the standard for their generation. As nice as Black Thought is, he's not very versatile and hardly ever switches up his flow and lyrical demeanor.
Those of you that want to remove Tupac, Nas, Jay-Z, Biggie or Wu-Tang from this list are out of your minds. They were the best, most complete MCs during the greatest era of the music AND they all had a distinct sound, flow and at least one album that took the music where it hadn't been before. Jay-Z may be the possible exception in terms of a ground-breaking album but his overall catalogue, consistency, and cross over appeal while never compromising lyrics and wordplay are unmatched.
Some of the other artists/groups posted here simply don't belong in this conversation. The Pharcyde? Gangstarr? Digital Underground? Mos Def? Cypress Hill? Love all of them but c'mon...you have to be a fan of them to really appreciate what they did, which proves Drew's original point. If not many people know about their work, how could they have changed the music or artform? They define their respective generation but didn't set the standard. Thus, my list is the following (in no particular order):
1. Public Enemy
2. NWA - Ice Cube & Dre are represented here as soloists
3. Wu-Tang - all Wu members are represented here as soloists
4. Outkast - Andre 300 is represented here as soloist
5. Tupac
6. Jay-Z
7. Nas
8. Notorious B.I.G.
9. Lauryn Hill
10.Rakim
Honorable Mention:
1. Run DMC (if this had dated back to '84-'86, they make the list)
2. Native Tongues
3. Eminem
4. Death Row (includes Snoop as soloist)
5. LL Cool J
6. Beastie Boys
7. The Ghetto Boys (includes Scarface as soloist)
8. The Juice Crew (Kane, Kool G. Rap, MC Shan, Biz Markie, Roxanne Shante, Marley Marl)
9. Boogie Down Productions (KRS)
10.Bone Thugs 'n Harmony - sounds crazy but who changed the music more than these dudes?
Bone Thugs 'n Harmony? Serious? You're saying them over The Roots? Them over any of Mos def? even as an honorable mention?
Damn, man. I must be listening to something different than what you guys are listening to. Maybe I'm just too critical. I'll give you Tupac.. you make a valid point about his crossover appeal and international acclaim. Jay-Z does nothing for me. I've heard you guys saying black thought is not relevant, is only bravado... what the hell is Jay-Z? Political? Socially conscious? a great storyteller?
It is so puzzling how the concept of musicality and art form is lost in this conversation. beastie boys shouldn't be on there cause not enough black guys you know like them? I know plenty of black dudes that loved the beasties. so what? what does that have to do with anything? I just really don't understand what you are trying to say in this list. If its crossover appeal you are looking at, then The Roots HAVE to be on this list. they tour more than anyone on this list... they have fans (a huge fan base) in most countries and states. I'm just not getting the point of this.
My list (in no particular order):
1. Run DMC (I hear you on the years, but they cannot be left off this list. they were so far ahead of their time their music would still bump today.)
2. Rakim (period)
3. Lauryn Hill (I agree with Is. she's too damn nasty to leave off this list)
4. BDP (Pioneers)
5. Outkast (No one is more unique and takes more risks musically)
6. Wu-Tang (truly defined a generation. they paved the way for mobb deep, biggie, and a boatload of mediocre, angry MCs)
7. Native Tongues (again, I agree with Is, collectively they created a new sound and feel to Hip Hop)
8. NWA (gave us Dre)
9. Public Enemy(political, universal, magnetic)
10. The Roots (See my last three posts, or just see them live)
Honorable Mentions:
1. Nas (lyrically, flow, production... Illmatic is one of the top five albums in hip hop (hmmm.. a new post maybe?))
2. Beastie boys (Pioneers)
3. MC Lyte (strong female lyricist)
4. Gangstarr (Guru and Premier were one of the dynamic duos of hip hop)
5. Tupac (though not a big fan, his music does define a generation and he has international acclaim)
6. Biggie (He's not only a client, he's the player president)
7. Eminem (lyrically ridiculous. set a new standard)
8. Jay-Z (stricly for his ability to branch out and show that you can be a great business man even if you're not the dopest MC.
9. LL Cool J (the guy just makes the ladies crazy. "I need love" broke molds)
10. Tha Alkaholics (these guys are the first west coast group to truly have that east coast vibe)
Sure I'm biased... I'm from the Bronx.
"What about my dog, and I mis my uncle Charles..."
Bone Thugs 'n Harmony
I think that the thing about this top 10 list is, we have to stick to the definition of what "changed hip-hop". Or, at least make two lists, one thats for changing hip-hop and one for defining it.
If it's changing it, then I don't think the Roots makes it. Dre, not wanting to gang up on you but, the Roots only have 2 gold albums. That doesn't demonstrate the crossover appeal that you alluded to. All the people on the list have at least that and more, and this is BEFORE hip-hop became the number one selling genre of music overall. Yes, they were the only ones to have a live band at all times and that in and of itself is a great thing. However, they didn't force live music with hip-hop to envelop the hip-hop community, MTV did. In 1991 they did "Yo! Unplugged Rap". With LL, MC LYTE, De La, and Tribe. This was followed up the next year by Uptown unplugged. Its lately that hip hop artists have drifted away from it. I mean, let's face it, Hip-hop is at it's worst right now. At least commercial hip-hop. It sucks.
I still think Lyte is on this list. She hasn't had the longevity for 20 years, but Lauren Hill hasn't either. And no offense to her because I think she has an incredible voice and is crazy talented. But someone else put her on and she hasn't done anything since. Sorry. Lyte really made guys have to go, "Wait, there's a girl that can tear it up like that?". And Iz, "Lyte as a Rock", "Act Like you know" and "Eyes on This". She was rough, hard and not afraid of her sexuality. She was a MUCH better Lil' Kim and Foxy Brown before those two women. She actually has a greatest hits album. She actually had enough hits to create one. You can't say that about Lauryn. Personally, I think she's a better singer than rapper. Dont kill me peoples. Right now, she's like your Bill Walton, she deserves to get in based on a couple of years. I don't think so. She was inducted into the Hip Hop Honors thing on VH-1. You gotta give her her daps.
Lou, I'm with you on this.
I'm a MC Lyte advocate for top 10
While ya debate, I'll just post verses that can speak for themselves.
"Must I say it again, I said it before
Move out the way when I'm comin through the door
Me, heavy? As Lyte as a Rock
Guys watch, even some of girls clock
Step back, it ain't that type of party
No reply if you ain't somebody
Get out my face, don't wanna hear no more
If you hate rejection, don't try to score
First base? You ain't got what it takes
You smile, you wink, you big fake flake
You're so pathetic you make my stomach turn
You beg, you borrow, now you have to learn"
Ya know ya was bumping to this in the house parties...stop playin.
Lou,
MC Lyte was hot, no doubt, but I don't think she fits the criteria that was set. Lauryn took the music where it really hadn't gone before and she was one of the nicest MCs during the era of the MC. I wouldn't put too much emphasis on a greatest hits album either as those are usually done to complete album requirements set by record deals. Shit, Shaq has a greatest hits album. I loved Lyte but her best music doesn't touch Lauryn's best AND Lauryn complemented absolutely dope rhymes with a great singing voice, no other female MC had done that. BTW, she's not a better singer than rapper.
I think part of the challenge here is putting aside our personal tastes in the interest of looking at things from a critical standpoint. You think I like Bone Thugs N Harmony or Eminem? No, but I recognize their contributions and relevance.
Dre, I love The Roots too but they just didn't have the type of impact on the music that Bone or Eminem did. I'm probably the biggest Gangstarr fan on this blog. I own and listen to everyone of their albums but they don't belong in this conversation. They simply didn't change the music/artform or define their generation the way the other artists on my list did.
Did Lauryn Hill even write her own rhymes??? ( Wyclef has taken credit for some of her tracks )
Com'n, your giving to much credit to a creative and very talented artist that could've been if she hadn't turned into a Ziggy Marley baby-maker ( or one of the Marley Brothers ).
Lauryn was versatile with her melody, we can't argue that but I question her contribution to Hip Hop.
Shit....Salt n Pepa were integrating singing with Rap and had more International Notoriety.
Is, you really need to take a ludden. You are advocating FOR Bone thugs and harmony and AGAINST De La Soul for the top ten list. I guess it is really about taste and what you came up with, if this argument was on the west there would be people screaming for E40 and Too Short, I know, I know but to some E40 is a god. De la Soul was much more than a generational flash in the pan. There lowest selling album was ahead of its time and still sounds completely fresh I'm speaking of Stakes is High which gets repeatedly sampled, quoted "try keeping it real when you should try keeping it right" and referenced to this day-people like Kanye and Jay-z are aware of this album even iif many people are not.
I guess that's my point I feel like the difference is between popular relevancy and musical impact often the most creative and influential artists are not the most popular. That is my point with Digital Underground and Cypress Hill. DU created the west coast funk which led to a whole genre of music and CH was the first with the raw/dirty production, crackling record and horns, they influenced many-I'm not just being nostalgic. Jay Z surrounded himself with talented people and made intelligent choices, he stayed fresh. But I can remember when Ben brought Hard Knock Life to Portland, I listened to the title track with the little orphan Annie samples and I though "really? This is hot?" He has no edge, he was always corny to me, he's not a businessman he's a business, man... good for him. Frank Sinatra sold more records than John Coltrane, but one was significant to music the other to pop-culture. The Roots are revolutionary and some of the most talented musicians on the planet, Jay-z is really rich and partially to blame for the sorry state of rap, Jay-z gets the gas face.
Hey, what about Slick Rick? The great adventures of- came out in 88, How many people were influenced by MC Ricky D?
Lyte made it cool/feasible for female MC's. Sorry to get corny, but she was akin to Jackie Robinson, in gender terms at least. It was her and Latifah. That's it. Lauryn, who BTW I am a big fan of, doesn't compare in that regard. I didn't know what Rick just wrote about Wyclef doing some of her writing. With Lyte, it was the exact opposite, she wrote for other MC's BECAUSE her rhymes were so tight. I actually forgot about that part. Thanks for reminding me Rick. Other than Latifah, what woman was there before the Lyte? She paved the way for other female MC's. And no, I don't mean the 357 girls, but actual MC's.
Shaq has a fuggin' greatest hits album? Wow. You know, so does Falco ("Rock Me Amadeus". In a word: Hilarious.). So my bad on the greatest hits thing. But, her greatest hits album does have actual hits: "10% Dis", "Paper Thin", "Cha, Cha, Cha", "Poor Georgie", "I am the Lyte", "Ruffneck", "Cold Rock a Party". Those are the ones that I remember liking, especially that Georgie song. She was the FIRST female to receive a gold single (Im guessing in rap). She was also the FIRST female solo rapper ever nominated for a Grammy. She was going up against the Trailblazers of hip-hop. And, not including "Ruffneck", she also tackled the misogyny in hip-hop in her songs. And don't forget, she carried First Priority records. Lastly and probably most important of all: She was born and raised in Brooklyn! Holla!
And I know this is late, but we haven't mentioned Missy. We've talked about production in Hip-hop and she definitely had her own sound. Remember, "The Rain"? She writes and produces ALL her material. She is crazy talented.
Side note:
I'm not sure how credible Wyclef's word is. Back in the 90s, after the Fugees started to fall off the radar, I saw him on this show called "Sightings" (one of those UFO, supernatural phenom shows that came on at 2am on sunday nights). He was saying he once saw a Mermaid. His story sounded suspiciously like the movie Splash.
Lauryn Hill can't turn back the clock, Lou. You can't discredit her just because she didn't open the door for female MCs. But her work on the Fugees albums gave credit to female rappers as legit MCs, not just gimics. I'm not saying Lyte or Latifah were gimics, they were definitely pioneers.. but Lauryn showed you could be hard AND feminine. "Miseducation" was one of the most groundbreaking albums ever to drop in the hip hop scene. It spanned genres while staying true to hip hop. That is what innovation is about.. that is how you change a genre, by taking chances, pushing the envelope. Something Jay-Z, biggie, nas, etc... never did. They were extrodinary MCs. they sold a lot of albums cause they were getting serious airplay. You give the fact that the Roots only had two gold albums as a reason they are NOT groundbreaking. When was the last time you heard a song by them on the radio? they sell albums without airplay. Cause they tour.. they put it on stage, alone, with other acts interwoven in their set... when a normal hip hop group plays a show they have to flood the stage with about ten to twenty other acts just so they know they will sell some tickets. not to mention most of them only have about two songs people want to hear anyway. What Nat said is right.. you can't judge on popularity, cause the best of ANY genre aren't the ones that sell the most records.
case in point.... Mettalica. they innovated heavy metal in ways NO OTHER band did for that genre. But Until the song "ONE" which was off their fourth or fifth album, they never had radio airplay, never appeared on an awards show or other television promo, yet sold out arenas and set the standard for a new brand of metal at the time.
Drew said The Roots can't be considered crossover artists cause "thugs don't like them". Since when did "thugs" become the supreme court of hip hop? Crossover in the hip hop community would mean that NOT JUST thugs like them. Music industry people... white folks in arkansas... old black folks remembering when music was music... Katie freakin' Couric... whoever. You go to a roots show and you see a snapshot of the world. You go to a mainstream hip hop show, you might just get shot in a snap.
First off, Nas wrote a song from the perspective of a gun. Innovative.
Jay-Z's first huge, crossover hit sampled Little Annie's voice, whether you like it or not, that was taking a chance.
Biggie has some songs where the stories he weaves are so detailed and realistic, it is like hearing a movie. Slick Rick is the only story-teller comparable to Biggie.
How can you say these three rappers never took a chance?
The comment I made about Thugs listening to the roots is not saying Thugs determine the quality of music. I am not saying that AT ALL. I am saying that a hip hop group can't be considered a universally hip hop changing group if a large supporter of hip hop doesnt care for them. I am sure a lot of thugs like 50 cent, and he has sold lots of records, but none of us are arguing for him, because so many other demographics hate/ ignore him.
I have gone to several Roots Concerts, and I see mostly whites and asians, which doesnt negate the Roots at all as a musical group, but does speak to their inability to cross-over. Outkast, a group just as eccentric, is able to do just that. Whites and Thugs and Baby Mammas, and all respect my boys, so: Fall back.
All i was trying to say with that thug comment is a top ten list must include groups that have strong support in a lot of different spheres of hip hop.
And I have been to many a thug concert and never got shot. Nor have I seen anyone get shot. Maybe you been reading too much of the New York Post, Mayor Gigloani.
Also, Dre your point about playing instruments ignores a fundamental fact about hip hop. The reason a lot of hip hop acts don't play live instruments may have something to do with not having access to privelege. Many of these dudes werent able to sign up for Suziki violin lessons, and there early public school music programs mostly taught the flute, and you had to rent one of those joints. (not to mention some of them were children of the 70's crack epidemic.)I am not saying playing instruments isnt important, but there is something to be said for creating possiblity where none exists. I rememeber being in Mississippi and Cats were making dope beats with a machine the size of a calculator; what is more hip hop than that?
Nat, Dre, and Lou:
I hear and can understand the points you bring to the table but, again, try to put aside your personal tastes and the social politics that come along from being the "first" to do this or that. Remember the criteria we're talking about here: an artist/group that defined the direction of the music, changed the artform and/or created a completely new sound and approach to the artform. I'm sorry, De La doesn't fit the bill in that equation. Bone Thugs N Harmony did, despite the fact that I've never bought or will probably ever buy a Bone record. I recognize their effect on the genre, though. I'd listen to Gangstarr, EPMD, De La, The Roots, Mobb Deep, Mos Def, Tribe, Boot Camp Clique, and Common ten times out of ten times over NWA, Eminem, Ghetto Boys, or Bone Thugs but I can't let my personal biases cloud my ability to be somewhat objective.
Ditto, Drew's point about Jay Z, Nas, and Biggie. Please don't let the content of the music cloud your judgement. They can be talking about botany for all I care. Just listen to the way they paint pictures, scenes and give you a complete sense of what they're experiencing despite your not being able to relate to that lifestyle at all.
Regarding, Nas...this dude completely revolutionized the way MCs rap in much the same way Rakim did for his era. Just listen to the amount of words and stunning visuals Nas fit into two bars then listen to the MCs that came before him. Big Pun will tell you that Nas was one of his biggest influences lyrical styles-wise. There's a reason Nasty Nas was called hip hop's savior for a minute. Biggie, what can you say? He was a 5 tool MC: rhymes, flow, original style, mic presence and story telling ability. Backpackers, thugs, college kids, women, and other MCs all respected BIG and bumped his music. When's the last time you've seen that? Oh right, Jay-Z. Jay-Z took the same elements BIG brought to the table, bottled it and sold it to the masses. The fact that he's a great businessman doesn't mean he wasn't the dopest MC when he was in his prime ('98-'03). I said dopest, not best...
I can't argue the Lauryn Hill point anymore. All those MC Lyte songs were hits, Lou. That's not the point. The point is that those songs didn't have the musical impact that Lauryn's music did on the genre. Again, politics aside....
Correction on my De La Soul point: they did create a new approach to the artform. My point is that they didn't influence the music outside of their niche.
what exactly did Bone Thugs N Harmony change? i haven't heard of them til last week.
The more I read this blog, the more I start to think that hip hop hasn't really changed at all in the last twenty years.
I don't take anything away from Nas, Biggie, Jay-Z... to this point even The Roots. In actuality, no one has changed the nature of hip hop in the last twenty years. Maybe that is a testament to the culture, or maybe just the genre. But honestly... now that I am trying to put this all into perspective(because this is all I've been thinking about this week), there has been no significant change in hip hop. Well, maybe not twenty years... ten, fifteen? I mean, Run DMC, Wu-Tang, NWA, Public Enemy... those groups TRULY changed the way hip hop was created after them. But all these other people we are all arguing about... they haven't changed the way people approach the creation of hip hop. They may have influenced certain new artists, or have been completely innovative in THEIR approach to hip hop, but have they really changed the game?
Let's look at hip hop today. Who are the biggest artists? Its hard to say. Maybe hip hop doesn't so much change but evolve slowly over time into expanded styles. Groups like The Procussions, K-os, Mos Def are branching out beyond the boundaries of what the mainstream hip hop fans want to hear. Then you got the mainstream which is extremely southern influenced right now. So in that respect, Outkast should be mentioned along with R-DMC, P.E. and the rest of those guys. Boogie Down Productions should be mentioned as well. They took hip hop from the P-Funk influence of bambata and grandmaster flash(No one introduced funk into hip hop.. hip hop was born of the funk) and turned it into the stories of the streets we've heard throughout our lifetime of listening to hip hop.
Along the way there are artist that may have defined a certain time period of hip hop. Saying Biggie and Tupac is like saying Fred and Ginger or Laurel and Hardy. they are so far crossed-over they need the old lady from Poltergeist (literally) to bring them back to hip hop. But those guys didn't change the game. They were doing their thing. the Roots never changed the game, they are doing their thing...
So perhaps the mystery here lies beneath the all the names we are throwing around and within the culture itself. Maybe the better question is why HASN'T hip hop changed significantly in the last 15 years of so? Is it because the average fans (and we are all average fans, we're not out there bumpin our heads at the open mic cafes and coppin mixtapes on 3rd ave, or Fulton for you brooklynites, anymore) are not demanding more out of their artists.
That being said, here is my new list(in no particular order):
1. Run DMC
2. Public Enemy
3. BDP
4. NWA
5. Wu-Tang
6. Native Tongues (They gave birth to artists like The Roots, Mos, Monche, and most of the positive MCs out there today)
7. Missy (You are totally right Lou. Her and Timbaland's style created a whole new sound)
8. The 18th Letter
9. OutKast
10.To Be Announced...
Dear Anonymous,
While I have heard of Bone, thugs, etc., I would like to piggy-back on your comment by asking, who have they influenced exactly? I actually liked their sound (I'd have to be in the mood for something a little more melodic) occasionally. But they were pretty unique. I think so at least. On the other hand, if you ask female MC's who they were influenced by, almost always, at the top of their list will be Lyte. She actually wrote for other people. If having other people say your rhymes isn't influencing others, I don't know what is. And yes, to be the first woman to achieve the things that she did does, to me, make her an influential entity. At least much more so than a woman who may actually better known for her singing prowess than her ability to rhyme in Lauryn. It's not a thing of taste Is, I just can't start naming names of people she influenced. To include Lauryn Hill and NOT Lyte and De La Soul, we would have to change the type of Hip Hop capsule this is.
And Dre, I only mentioned the Roots' track record of selling albums because you mentioned at our card game that they were HUGE and sold to MANY different people. Usually when the Roots are brought up, people refer to them as "that great college group". That, and of course, "that incredible live band".
Has hip hop changed in the last 20 years? Hell's yeah. However, not to my liking. In the last 10 years hip hop has entered into a period where if I were to listen to a sampling of what's being blasted on the airwaves today, i'd associate it more with 2 Live Crew. Now THATS where the South got their sound from and their producer Mr. Mixx. I thought they had some party jams and they said some outrageous stuff (Who can forget, "Hey we want some *womans anatomy* !!) and I never would have associated them with a list like the one we were thinking about, but think about it: The crap we hear on the radio today sounds a LOT more like Luke than Nas or Rakim. At least the overwhelming majority of it. Who does Lil' John sound more like? They're an example of an allright thing going way, way bad.
If by any small, small chance you read this Mr. John, or Lil', whichever you prefer, I don't mean to hate on you or your mentor Luke, BUT, you are destroying hip hop for us few (apparently) who like a little more to a song than an ultra repetitive hook and some fly, scantily clad women in your hyper misogynistic videos.
Guys, face it, we're those old guys who complain about, "the music of today. Back in MY day, they made MUSIC DAMMIT!!". Getting older sucks.
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