The Mets: Where do they go from here?
Met fans, I am truly sorry for the way the season ended for you. Honestly. I did not take any delight in your sorrow this weekend, which I know must be considerable. As a Yankee fan, I know about collapses. I heard a lot about it from you all after the Yanks were beaten by the Sawx taking four straight from the Yanks after being down 3-0. That being said, the Mets are fixable. They have the resources to do it. This season may end up being kind of good for the Mets. I stated last season that this team hadn't faced adversity which was why I wasn't sure about them reachign the Series last year. This year, they finally faced adversity, and while they didn't pass this test, at least now they faced it. They can learn from this. I don't think that this is the way they're doomed to face adversity their whole careers. I do think it was troubling the way that Reyes played over the last 6 weeks of the season, but I don't think it's something we should come to expect from him on a year-in, year-out basis.
I stated from the beginning of the year that it was short-sighted and irresponsible of the Mets to have such old players at key positions when you have aspirations of winning it all. If they weren't expected to make a serious run at the World Series, then going into the season depending on: El Duque (41 and injury prone), Glavine(41), Jose Valentin(37, coming off a career year), Moises Alou (41 and injury prone)and Shawn Green(34 and injury prone). Maybe the thought process was that with 2 injury prone, older, corner outfielders that Lastings Milledge would get the opportunity to play, but thats asking for too much to go right if you have championship aspirations. Then there is the case of Paul LoDuca. I like him for the most part. He is good defensively and calls a relatively good game. He was another Met that had a career year last year that could not be called on to perform as well as he did. He will be 35 next year and as long as his contract is not too large, he should be re-signed as a stop gap until another catcher comes along. Word is that the Mets will be making a big play for Posada this off season. Getting Posada would be huge for the Mets, but they would probably have to overpay for him to come to Shea.
I'm not sure what outfielders are going to be free agents this coming off season, but the time is probably now for them to trade Lastings Milledge to acquire a young starter. Maybe the Mets should start talks with Billy Beane who seems to love Milledge and get Danny Haren who may obtainable now that Haren is - I think - arbitration eligible. Beane is notorious for trading guys away at this stage in their careers. It is easier and cheaper to get corner outfileders with some power than it is to get starting pitching. If you pick up a decent - not injury prone - outfielder this off-season, give Endy Chavez/Ramon Castro about 300-400 AB's next year for his speed and defense, I think they'll be all right.
What I find troubling is that Wagner is trying to blame Randolph and Rick Peterson for how bad they pitched over the last month or 2. Were they overworked? Sure. But that had more to do with the fact that their starters couldn't go longer in games. They really missed one of Izzy's favorites in Darren Oliver. He could go - as Iz pointed out - up to 4 innings by himself. They really missed him for his ability to eat innings in the middle of games. Plus, they still haven't found a replacement for Duaner Sanchez. He's starting to become the Mets' version of Carl Pavano. Getting Sanchez back should be a huge boost for the Mets next season. I don't think that the Mets' bullpen will need an overhaul. If they are able to obtain a couple of innings eaters, they should be fine. Unfortunately, thats easier said than done. Maybe they can go for Dontrelle Willis. They'll most likely be able to get him on the cheap and if Willis gets to a team with a chance to win, maybe he'll pitch better. The only other question with him is his weird delivery which may put a lot of stress on his elbow which should worry you if you want him for the long haul.
What do you guys think? Any ideas on what went wrong and how to fix it?
19 comments:
I need more time...
The Mets need look no further than their pitching and their defense. They have the offensive skill. But many of the games they lost in the last two and a half weeks were come from behind wins by teams that were simply more hungry. The Mets got a little cocky, rested on their lead, thought there was no way they could lose it after building such a large lead.
The other thing I want to point out is that we cannot take the glory away from the Phillies. I huge part of why the Mets are cleaning out their lockers is that the Phillies just out played them down the stretch. They were hungry, they were focused, and they TOOK this division from the Mets. Yes, they Mets played pretty bad, but if Philly wasn't kicking ass while the Mets were having visions of champagne poppin, We could still be hopeful for another subway series. The Mets ARE too old in some spots, but this was a TEAM collapse, from the head offices to the bench. This was a case of sloppy, lackluster play that came at the wrong time.
The Yankees last two games against Baltimore this weekend showed two clubs still battling. It was just a game, no deciding factors, nothing on the line, and those two clubs, albeit the second and third string guys for the yanks, STILL played like it meant something.
The Mets need to learn something from the Phillies, the Marlins, The Nationals, and all the other teams that left them with red asses, red faces, and the month of october at home. Its called desire, perserverance, hunger, and heart. Knowing when you have to step up and play for your team, for your fans, for your coach, and for yourself. They did it for the early part of the year, then ried to coast into the playoffs. It was arrogant and costly.
Look at how the Football Giants have done in the last two games that has completely turned around thier season and quite possibly saved what could have been a disaster season for New York football fans. Its not like they aren't getting paid enough. Go out there and work.
BTW, I don't see Posada ANYWHERE but the Yankees, ever. He's worth more than A-Rod if you ask me, not just cause of his career year he had this season, but because he is quite possibly the best catcher in the MLB right now and a leader on that team. If the Yankees let him go, they deserve a swift kick in the head.
I haven't seen as many games as other people, but I do keep hearing about how cocky the Mets played all year. From ESPN to Mets blogs. Its been a pretty consistent theme. There was even a quote attributed to a Met basically saying that they're so good that they could coast from time to time.
Ernie, sorry. I know its probably early. Dre, I hope that Posada doesn't go anywhere, but I also dont think hes worth a big contract for 4 years or more. Maaaaybe 4 years is the cut-off point. Hes relatively young as far as catchers go because he used to be a second baseman (must have been the slowest 2nd baseman of all time)in the minors which saved some wear and tear on his knees, but the guy is 35. Although hes a great hitter for a catcher, hes still going to be near 40 at the end of his next contract and as a catcher, thats not too hot.
The Phils were nails down the stretch as you said. If the Mets would have played .500 ball, the Phils would have still tied for the Wild Card, so they really do deserve to be in the playoffs, regardless of what the Mets did.
The finger-pointing thats starting to come out now, to me, is disturbing as far as what a team needs.
Nothing short of a choke job. A historic one. That's basically what we're looking at here. I think you point to some real deficiencies, Lou, but I boil it down to this: On an 8 game homestand against Florida, St. Louis and Washington (inferior teams playing out the season), all they had to do was win 4 games. They couldn't do it. What's worst of all is that they didn't play with any focus, passion, drive or commitment. All you had to do was look at Philly and the energy they played with and compare it to the Mets'. Philly deserved to take the division (how clutch was Ryan Howard?!).
That said, the Mets do have a lot of holes to fill but I think it's squarely on the pitching. They simply didn't have a reliable ace that could stop the bleeding and their bullpen eventually collapsed under the weight of their own weaknesses along with the pressure that was on them from having to come in from the 6th inning on every game. I'm not sure what the stats are but I'm willing to bet that the Mets were at the bottom of MLB in starters pitching complete games. I really think that came back to bite them. I wouldn't tinker too much with the offense outside of getting someone to work with Reyes. I think those are some good trades you've proposed, Lou. I really feel they can get Dontrelle on the cheap and should make a real run at Yohann Santana. Hopefully, Pedro comes back healthy and the pen is infused with some proven talent, veteran or otherwise. They aren't that far away but this is a perfect example of how important pitching is at this level.
As a Yankee fan, I'm not gonna tell the Mets what they need to fix their team. Mets fans have been watching all year and they know what the deal is. People can blame the collapse on whatever they want but when half your team gets injured (including your best pitchers) like Adrinne Balboa said in Rocky 3 "You can't win!"
The Mets caught a bad breaks at the wrong time. You can talk about hustle and all that but the truth is half the team was old and the rest was in the infirmary. The Mets need good young legs and arms, but then so does every team.
While having an ace to anchor your rotation is great. No doubt about it. They really dont need one with their lineup (which they have a great nucleus for) and the fact that they play in the NL. What they need is an effective innings eater or 2 to keep them in games and so that their bullpen (provided Sanchez comes back healthy) can pitch effectively over the long haul. I was actually surprised that their bullpen didnt suffer more last year from being overworked. I guess the combination of no Oliver and maybe the cumulative effect of overuse from last year did it?
Ed, I dont think that Met fans saw what their problem was. I, personally, dont think that management did either. I think that they depended on their big 3 (Wright, Reyes, Beltran) too much. Delgado, injury or not, couldnt hit lefties all year. Thats not even bringing up that I think that hes overmatched when hes up against a pitcher with a plus fastball. I saw him look overmatched against some reliever on Saturday that topped out at 91. It wasnt even like the guy had a funky delivery or hid the ball well. I know that Iz thinks it was just because he was injured all year. I would be very surprised if he turns around and has his bat speed back next year. But either way, hes a pretty good power bat to have in the lineup. Even if he does hit .250-.260 for the year.
They went into this season depending on Vizcaino and LoDuca to replicate the career years that they had the season before. Even Vizcaino's replacement, 37 year old Easley got hurt. I dont think you can keep trotting out old position players then be surprised (and more importantly not have a real back-up plan) when they get injured. The Mets had an "American League"-type lineup last year. This year, they dropped to 4th. Which ordinarily would be fine if you have decent pitching, but it wasnt enough this year. I didnt see this till yesterday, their ERA went up every single month of the season to an abysmal 6 something in September.
That's my point, Lou. Look at their team ERA's progressive rise over the year and then compare it to their winning pct over that time span. There's a direct correlation between the two. I'm not worried about this team's offense. Between Beltran, Wright, Reyes, Alou, Castillo (if he's back) and maybe a free agent outfied signing, they should be fine. I won't include Delgado and Milledge in the mix because there's a lot of rumbling that they may not be back. But if Delgado's back, I expect him to have a better year. Maybe not another 30, 100 year but he's a decent power bat, as you say. I expect Lastings Milledge to continue to develop if he isn't traded for a young arm.
Their problem was the pitching. Point blank. They blew so many games in August and September when they were ahead 2+ runs going into the 8th or 9th inning. Their offense played well enough to win the division running away. The pitching let them down. Glavine getting bombed in each of his last 3 starts was a killer. Heillman, Sosa, Mota and Wagner consistently blowing big games was a killer. I would even go as far as saying that Willie, given the pen's make-up, made some questionable pitching changes in key spots. I know guys like Lo Duca and Valentin (not Vizcaino) didn't replicate the years they had last year but that wasn't an issue until late August and September when their pitching began to show signs of attrition. They need guys that can eat up innings, whether they're coming out of the bullpen or starters pitching into the 8th inning.
Totally. The pitching needs an innings eater or 2. This is supposed to be a decent free agent market for outfielders, which is one the places the Mets should look to.
I just heard this trade possibility: Reyes, Carlos Gomez and most likely Humber for Johan Santana and SS Jason Bartlett. What do you guys think about that? It would only happen of course if the Mets are allowed to negotiate an extension with Santana to insure that they get to keep him.
I won't give up Reyes for Yohann Santana at this point because I think the Mets have a chance to outright sign Santana when he becomes a free agent; at which point Pedro's contract would be expiring. Plus, I wouldn't want to part with Reyes at this stage of his career for any pitcher outside of Brandon Webb, Jake Peavy, or CC Sabathia. And even then, I'd want a young SS coming back. Yohann's maybe on that list too but, like I said, he can be had as a free agent.
He wont be a free agent until after next season. And then, when he becomes a free agent, youll have to compete for his services along with the Sawx and the Yankees. Then its a free for all. Trading for him - and getting that window of time to negotiate with him for an extension - guarantees that you will get him for a few years. In the trade that I mentioned, they would be sending a SS prospect to the Mets. Its just a rumor. I would have to think about it. But I wouldnt do this unless I first tried hard to trade Milledge for Haren (A's) first.
Not parting with position players to get pitching is what got the Met's partly into this situtation. They could've had Dontrell for Miledge last year.
I think you give up Reyes for Santana. The guy is a two time Cy Young winner, who's in his prime. Hell I'd give them David Wright if that's what it took to get him. No brainer.
As for what Met's fans knew all year, even at the beginning of the year, was that their pitching was old and at any minute injuries could devestate the team. Getting younger pitching has to be a priority. I agree with Lu getting Santana now before he becomes a free-agent is the best approach.
BTW funny how it's Yankee fans (Iz I count you as 1/2 a Yankee fan even though sometimes you go against the family)commenting. Where are the Met fans?
Ernesto is still recovering. The rest of them, maybe they think the deck is stacked against them with the pic of Don Mattingly on here. Esto or Amaury still havent written anything. Met fans may only be good when theyre drinking at a BBQ. They sure play that way.
Going against the ""family" is the cost of being a rationalist.
Again, I think Yohann can be had as a free agent. Why give up the most exciting young player in the league potentially when you can have Santana on the free agent market? I understand that other teams will also be bidding but the Mets have an in with Minaya and they have the pockets to compete.
I said last year that I thought Milledge should've been traded for a pitcher (Roy Oswalt was the name being talked about) but I don't think his upside is as high as Reyes'. Reyes is a special player and, at 24, still has a lot of time to improve. Again, Wright, Reyes and Beltran should be untouchables unless Peavy, Sabathia, or Webb are available. I think Dontrelle can be had without giving up any of those players. That's a good place to start.
You callin me out? You calling me out?
Listen you....
Seriously though, I've been trying to come at this from different angles to come up with something more than a "knee jerk" "throw the bums out" and "let's go after the big timers mentality".
I've seen posts (other forums- no, we are not exclusive Lou, I'm seeing other blogs) that speak of A-Rod at Shea "whatever the cost", dissolving the entire management from Minaya down, and seem to think that good players will want to be a part of a franchise that do those things.
I think the first thing we must remember (and most beer guzzling, ignorance posting fanatics never do) is that the players we are speaking of are people. I'm not being sentimental, I am simply pointing out that we are not dealing with pawns on a chess board. They are people with different paths and goals and at various levels of development. This is well understood by you guys but I don't believe the general populace cares. So until I look at the numbers a little more closely I will not comment-some of the things that happened in September, as Is indicated, were anamolies and NOT what is to be expected from this team on an every day basis. I will consolidate my thoughts and get back to the group.
In the meantime I would like to mention that Don Mattingly seems like a great guy but only had half of a career bordering on greatness, the other half was mediocre at best. Yes, he was great with the glove but Keith Hernandez' 11 Gold Gloves beats Donny's 9 in any math classroom.
Oh yeah, the year he won the MVP-4 other Yankees made it to the voting. You like talking about protection Lou so I'm just echoing your sentiments vis-a-vis Wright.
Ernie Banks...great to see you back!
Speaking of Keith Hernandez, I think he, Ron Darling and Jeff Cohen are the best broadcasting team in MLB (at least among those I've had a chance to listen to). Seriously, listen to them. The way they break down the game and what pitchers and batters are looking to do is great. Plus, they're sincerely critical of Met players when they make bad plays. They don't come off as homers. You learn a lot from listening to them.
Hey Ernie. I was seeing if any life could be given to your fellow Met fan no-shows.
I dont remember Is saying that there were anomalies associated with the Mets collapse. He reiterated that the ERA climbed every month of the season and that he wasnt as concerned for the offense as I was. I still am worried about the team in general because of age at key positions. I think it disrupts teh team to continually have injuries. I saw it with the Yankees. And you leave yourself open to that when you get guys that are old and injury prone.
Iz, the offense suffered. Its a fact. They went from having the most dangerous offense in the league last year to being a little better than the Brewers in 5th place. Sure, they remain the most dynamic offense in the league with their ability to steal and hit for power, but it was a noticeable dropoff from last year. They almost had enough in the tank, but they were sputtering for most of the second half.
Everyone thought that they would make it to the playoffs because of their offense. And secondarily their bullpen.
Ernie, I dont agree that Minaya should be fired, Willie either. However, Minaya had a bunch of trades that worked against the Mets this year and I think its kinda crappy that the organization left Willie hung out to dry at the end of the season. Meanwhile, it was Minaya who got these geezers to paly and break down for Willie. AND they probably forced Henderson on Willie too. I was against this from teh beginning.
Who thinks that Henderson is coming back?
No doubt the offense wasn't what it was last year, Lou. Especially since, as you mentioned, guys like LoDuca, Valentin, and Delgado didn't have the seasons they had last year. My only point is that I don't think that was the reason they lost the division. Their offense played well enough to win the division. It was their pitching that consistently let them down in key spots where the offense did more than enough to win.
Let me clarify my "anomalies" statement. Is indicated the Mets underperformed during an 8 game homestand. They did underperform...slightly. The Mets were not the dominant team this season they were last year. Their lead had far too many ebbs for them to be considered dominant. That's why I felt their performance in September was not completely surprising. I really felt they would break .500 and go on to win the ones that mattered(much like St. Louis did last year), but of course, they didn't. In that sense, I thought the losing streak was an anomaly that would be corrected if the season was longer, but of course, it isn't.
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